Written by Tina M. Barber

September 2003

Hard Questions  --  Honest Answers

John O. Public asks -- MaShiloh, Breed Founder, replies


1. I bought my second AKC German Shepherd from Shiloh Shepherd™ kennel in 1989. If I buy one that is now called a "Shiloh Shepherd™" by so many other "breeders" will I still be getting the same type of dog??

2. If I  purchase a non-ISSR puppy that consists of a cross between an  unregistrable "shiloh" and a GSD, what can I call it?

3. If all of the other (non-ISSR) puppies out there are not "real" Shiloh Shepherds™, why are people pretending that they are?

4. What makes the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd™ different from the others that attempt to claim that name??

5. What if a certain dog fits the Breed Standard, doesn't that make it a Shiloh??

6. If it only takes 3-4 generations of breeding "type" to establish a "rare" breed, why is the Shiloh Shepherd™ listed as STILL being under development?

7. Why can't someone just outcross to a GSD??

8. Why are the ISSR rules for breeding these dogs so strict?  We don't have all these rules with my GSDs that are registered in the AKC. 

9. If your gene pool  is so limited that you are still not ready to close the stud books, and outcrossing to GSD's  is not recommended, what criteria do you use for selecting appropriate "New Blood" dogs?

10. Why is it so important to investigate the littermates, and not just the parents, when you are planning a breeding?

11. Is extensive knowledge of the littermates of your breeding stock the most important consideration when choosing breeding partners?

12. Is there any  other protocol that you use when making various breeding decisions?

13. What type of Health Issues are ISSR breeders concerned with??

14. What about the Shiloh Shepherd™ dog owners that did not participate in the health survey?

15. How can you avoid the dangers of over inbreeding, eliminate potentially lethal carriers,  and still maintain the true Shiloh Shepherd™ type??

16. How much importance do you place on Good Hips, Huge Size and Stable Temperament of the Shiloh Shepherd™?

17. From the hip data you have on your web pages, it looks as if  the Shiloh Shepherd™ is losing ground, is it??

18. I heard that the ISSR has an "SP" rating that allows dysplastic dogs to enter the gene pool, can this be true?

19. What about other Health Issues?  What strides are being taken to reduce the frequency of other diseases?

20. On several websites I have noticed that Tina Barber is listed as being one of the founders of the Shiloh Shepherd™ breed. Who were the other people involved?

21. What does the "ideal" Shiloh look and act like, and is it even possible to locate one that totally fits the Breed Standard?


Question 1.

I bought my second AKC German Shepherd from Shiloh Shepherds kennel in 1989.  If I buy one that is now called a "Shiloh Shepherd" by so many other "breeders" will I still be getting the same type of dog??


As long as the breeder is licensed with the ISSR you can be assured of the same quality that you are expecting.  All ISSR breeders are Licensed and operating within the same guidelines I had established for myself many decades ago!

Requirements to Become an ISSR, Inc. Licensed Breeder

However, if you purchase a pup from someone that is just trying to "pass off" their long haired GSD's or mixed breed pups as "shilohs" then you're getting the wool pulled over your eyes Frown

Please read Shiloh or LHGSD

Then take a few moments to study my article regarding this  Confusion??

If you would like to gain a deeper understanding of the present situation regarding this breed, then please take the time to study the true history of the Shiloh Shepherd by reading about the kennel of origin and visit my new Tina Speaks site!!

For a quick synopsis of the past 40 years please take a good look at the chart and then follow the links listed at the bottom of the page. 

If you take the time to visit a variety of web sites that are promoting the Shiloh Shepherd you should notice that some clearly attempt to claim that their dogs have a right to be called by that name because they have each created their own "registries" for this "breed".  If you use some basic common sense it shouldn't be difficult for you to figure out why they are making such foolish claims.

In essence, these people are attempting to sell their puppies for higher prices then they could demand if they were to inform you that they were just "long haired" German Shepherds without legitimate AKC papers or worst yet--"Shepherd" mixes!  

Don't Fall 4 the Fraud

However, since they did not meet the requirements established by the ISSR to qualify as Shiloh Shepherds (mostly because they combined dogs that were not compatible due to the over-inbreeding or they used unapproved GSD's) they were unable to properly register their puppies. Therefore they have chosen to just use the "name" *Shiloh Shepherd* that has been associated with the awesome dogs that I (Tina Barber) have been producing for over four decades,  thus they are misleading the public into thinking that these dogs are the same "breed" while attempting to defame the real Shiloh Shepherd  that continues to be produced under the strict guidelines of the ISSR!

As you can clearly see from the confusion article and the History chart, this has been going on for nearly a decade now. In each case, these so called "registries" rise--run--and crash, all in a relatively short amount of time while the ISSR has continued to grow and provide our breed with the ethical data collection and processing that must be maintained in order for us to achieve the goals that have been set before us--to continue expanding our gene pool, with extreme care so that we can all enjoy these beautiful giant healthy dogs with sound hips and stable temperaments worthy to be called SHILOH SHEPHERDS for many generations to come.

A few words that I would like for you to ponder:

If we do not stand strong to our commitment now, but allow ourselves to support the efforts of those that have chosen not to work toward the same goals that our Breed Founder was working towards when she opened up her Shiloh Shepherd™'s kennel doors for others to enter in order to help her realize her dream for these wonderful dogs--then we will be the ones who will suffer when this breed has ceased to exist. And not only us, but our children and our children's children will be robbed of the opportunity to own one of these amazing creatures, because, by then, surely they will no longer exist.

2006 Update

The slivers have continued to mass-produce (and promote) their Fake "OTX shilohs."  Please take a moment to view one of my more recent articles and join our Community Forums to meet hundreds of REAL Shiloh owners!



Question 2.

If I  purchase a non-ISSR puppy that consists of a cross between an unregistrable "shiloh" and a GSD, what can I call it?


You could call the progeny King Shepherds (a rare breed listed with ARBA) IF they let you, OR you could call them long haired GSD's ... although you probably wouldn't be able to get papers, unless your "Shiloh" dogs still have their AKC papers (and then they would certainly be too old to breed since the ISSR took over all registrations in 1991), OR you could LIE and CLAIM that they are "Shiloh Shepherds" so that you can sell them for a lot more money, since there are several dishonest people who have set up "so called" (Bogus) "registries" out there that will  give you OTX "papers" for such pups. Be sure to read about this Confusion very slowly!

What you CAN'T do is to call them REAL Shiloh Shepherds
, since we have MUCH stricter requirements for the development of this breed!!! Please see Registries: What Are They? and Shiloh vs. LHGSD  for further information.

This should not be surprising, since most people can easily understand the following example:

You see a sign along the road that says GSD pups for sale, and as you drive up to the farm you notice  two beautiful dogs in the front yard that look  like "pure" German Shepherds. Liking their looks, you pull in and purchase  a female puppy for $50 without papers.  Two years pass. Your friend (who has just imported a very expensive GSD male) offers to breed to your female.  Would you be able to register those pups with the AKC as German Shepherds??  NO!  Not because they are no longer beautiful dogs, but because the "paper trail" has been broken.  Likewise, once the ISSR "paper trail" is broken the progeny is not registrable.  In other words, unfortunately, they cannot even be classified as "purebred" by any legitimate organization.

It's the responsibility of the breeders to follow proper procedures in order to ensure that their litters can be registered.  That is why people charge much higher prices for pups that have the proper "papers" backing up their TRUE lineage!  In the rare breed world there are many Spurious registries that offer "papers" for a few dollars, without demanding any  documentation!  The Internet is full of horror stories about such places.


If you feel that you have been defrauded by a person representing themselves as a legitimate "breed registry" then you may want to consider taking the matter to your local government officials, especially if you paid over a hundred dollars for such a puppy. This could be construed as fraud if you were not presented with proper documentation and full disclosure.


If you would like to know a little more about other organizations that sell papers, be sure to read  About Dog Registries and Kennel Clubs.

Now you can visit a couple of  examples of such "registries":

American Purebred Registry Home

Canine Registration and Certification Services

then search out more information that will help you to better understand the FULL picture!Clubs, Registries and Associations  may be helpful to you in that search

Investigate before you Invest! 
Consider the fact that you will have your new friend for many years to come, take some care in choosing one that will fit well into your lifestyle, and not cost you unnecessary heartache

Beware of the frauds!!

Caveat Emptor- Buyer Beware  / The Wall of Shame


Question 3.  If all of the other (non-ISSR) puppies out there are not "real" Shiloh Shepherds, why are people pretending that they are?


Unfortunately the popularity of these magnificent dogs has spread far and wide.  Even pet quality pups sell easily for thousands of dollars, with the demand constantly increasing! At this time (2003) I only have 2 litters (one is only a week old, the other is just leaving for their new homes) yet I have plenty of  prepaid clients still waiting!  By the time my next litter is born, there will be even more people standing in line!  Yes, they will all get exactly what they ordered -- eventually, but some folks don't want to wait 4, 6, 10 months, or even longer, just for a pup Frown Such folks can often be duped into paying a high price for a "mutt" as long as the person "claims" to be a "breeder" and offers some kind of certificate (even if it's only "home computer" generated) that states that this pup IS a "Shiloh Shepherd".  Of course the owner will then insist on representing this dog as a "genuine shiloh" because to do otherwise would be admitting to the fact that they were scammed!! Frown

If you want to prevent that from happening to you, may I suggest that you take a little bit more time investigating this breed.   FAQs: Breed Specific   We also have a lot of other great articles on our  The Shiloh Shepherd™ Learning Center: Site Map  that may be helpful to you.

I would strongly recommend that you read  A Caddy is not a Caddy .... and that you download our
Run with the Big Dogs, a reprint of 1997 article by Eric Curlee in the American Survival Guide Magazine and the Shiloh Shepherd™ Trifold.

The more you learn about these dogs, the better equipped you will be to protect yourself from the oxymudas!

I would also like to recommend that you contact some of our 
Regional Chapters of the Shiloh Shepherd™ Dog Club of America  and try to meet some REAL Shiloh Shepherds™ in person!!  If there are none near you, then be sure to visit one of the Ambassadors listed on our Shiloh Ambassador Map or just join our  Shiloh Shepherd™ Community Forums  so that you can meet hundreds of great people!

KNOWLEDGE IS POWER:  take the time to educate yourself!!  Read our  FAQs: How to Purchase the Right Puppy and  Investigate Before You Invest!  
We have made the information available for you, so take your time ... read my story ...  Broken Hearted Founder look at the pictures in my reports!!

Then if you sincerely want to understand my complete plan for the future welfare of these dogs, please read this page very carefully!! International Shiloh Shepherd™ Registry And don't forget to purchase my new book!!

Shiloh Shepherd Story: Against the Wind - A Breed is born

Question 4. What makes the ISSR Shiloh Shepherd different from the others that attempt to claim that name??


To begin with, the Shiloh Shepherd is the result of **my** vision (version) of the "total" GSD.  I have spent a lifetime preserving the kind of dog I recalled as a child, and then spent many decades attempting to set type in order for my "vision" for this "breed" to become  a reality  Kennel of Origin--The Real History of the Shiloh Shepherd™ dogs

In 1990 I wrote  The Origins of the Shiloh Shepherd™ (in word and picture) that clearly outlined my FULL intentions (at that time) for the future development of these dogs!  Although I had over 100 dogs in my kennel, I was aware of the fact that I would need help from many other people to sufficiently expand my gene pool.  The ISSR was designed (similarly to the SV) in order to assist me with those goals!  ISSR, Inc.:  Rules and Regulations.

Shortly after that I established my VIB program, and then the OSSA (Original Shiloh Shepherd Academy) where I can continue to teach new future Breeders! The original school was very crude. I made copies of booklets like Planned Breeding by Lloyd Brackett, and typed out pages of lessons and pedigrees that I would mail out to my group of Licensed Breeders in order to help them get more familiarized with our program. I would also include tests that they had to complete and return for scoring. Now most of this is done via the OSS Academy as well as our other forums.

All of our current ISSR Licensed Breeders are listed on our website for your convenience.  Many have their own web pages linked that you can view in order to see more pictures and read information about their particular goals within our organization. Many of the more dedicated ones are also on several SSDCA committees such as the Genetic Task Force or heavily involved in their local chapters. All are working hard toward helping me attain full recognition for this breed.

Others that have attempted to claim that name are **NOT** following the same vision that I have always had for these dogs. They are only interested in  cashing in on the great reputation that **MY** kennel has been able to attain, due to the many decades of producing my version of the Giant <GSD> Shepherds with good hips and stable temperaments!!  Now that the demand has been realized, they are only interested in making a quick profit by misappropriating *the* name, without understanding what *the* name actually stands for!  You should take a moment and read  What's In a Name  and then follow up your knowledge with a peek at our newest (complete timeline) chart Wink Shiloh Shepherd™ History: The First 40 Years as well as Don't Fall 4 The Fraud.

If you would like to SEE the dogs that were used to establish the foundation pillars for this breed-- be sure to read
Pedigree Examples.

That is why it is SO critical to maintain ALL of the data, on a developing breed ... especially the health issues under ONE umbrella!! Any time that any kind of 'splintering' occurs, the ENTIRE breed suffers! Just take a moment to look at this simple example.

<<What many people don't realize is that: With an autosomal recessive disease, for each affected dog in a pedigree, every one of his offspring, both his parents, half his siblings, at least half his parents' siblings, at least two of his four grandparents and at least half their siblings are carrying the gene. -- That's a lot of dogs! >> Breed Out Genetic Disorders

In a nutshell

1. Due to the fact that the specially selected dogs that entered into the elite select group that would be later called "Shiloh Shepherds" were already heavily inbred, the gene pool would need to receive continuous infusion of *New Blood* in order to survive long enough to attain full breed recognition.

2. Since I had already been working with these foundation lines since 1962, I felt that I had attained enough experience (especially since I was operating a kennel that housed over 100 dogs, and produced dozens of litters per year) to continue expanding my gene pool properly, in order to retain the qualities I wanted, while purging those that were not beneficial to this breed's future welfare; like unstable temperaments, small size and various health issues.  

After all, I created the "Shiloh Shepherd", and who else could possibly continue to maintain the quality that I established better than I could?

3. However, some people did not agree with the path I chose to take. They felt that all of the dogs should continue to be inbred, and that my choices of potential outcross NB (New Blood) dogs should not be used. Don't Fall 4 the Fraud

Of course the more I tried to teach them about the dangers of inbreeding the more stubborn they became, eventually leaving the ISSR in order to do "their own thing" and ended up creating what they consider to be "their own" registries. For more details, please read Confusion and Puppy Producers: What Are They?.

Interesting Links to the Development of Other Dog Breeds

Argentine Dogo

Distinguished as the only dog developed in Argentina, the Dogo Argentine was created in the 1920's through the stratagem of Dr. Antonio Nores Martinez. The breed is well known throughout Europe, especially Germany, and was granted recognition by the FCI in 1990. 

For more information, please read the entire article: Dogo Argentino Information

Molosserworld Dogo Argentino

Cesky Terrier

Developed by Frantisek Horak in 1949, this breed, a mixture of two different types of terrier, was recognized by the FCI in 1963.  For more information, please read: Cesky Terrier Breed Information

Chinook Dog

"Walden was finally getting the quality of dogs that he was accustomed to; and in 1920 his new line of "Husky half-breds" (as he called them), made their debut at the Gorham, NH winter carnival, and he started seriously promoting dog sledding for draft, recreation, and sport. Racing in New England began a year later, at the 1921 Gorham carnival; it was a modest race (two teams of three dogs each, over a six mile course) and Walden lost, but interest built rapidly from there. Walden had also been promoting freighting by dogsled to the woodsmen as a faster, more economical way to move supplies to their logging camps, and convinced the Brown Paper Company of Berlin, NH to sponsor the first Eastern International Dog Derby in 1922 in part to encourage more people to breed quality sled dogs in the region. Four teams competed in this 123 mile race; and Walden, with Chinook in lead, won hands down. Competition was keen, however; and Walden realized that Chinook, weighing just over 100 pounds in fit working condition, was too massive an animal to continue leading winning race teams. He started breeding Chinook with an eye for lighter boned, faster offspring, who still carried Chinook's intelligence and trademark coloration."  For more information, please read: The History of the Chinook Dog

Sepalla Siberian Sled Dog

<<NOW AT LAST Seppalas have recognition as a breed in their own right, sponsored by a federally-chartered animal pedigree association, The Working Canine Association of Canada. By the efforts of two lifelong protectors of Seppalas, they now have "evolving breed" status with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada.

THIS WEBSITE is dedicated to the goal of saving Seppalas for posterity. The few lucky people who have owned real Seppalas usually feel strongly about the uniqueness of these dogs. Unfortunately there is much misunderstanding about what Seppalas really are. Many dogs represented as Seppalas are really just racing Siberian Huskies. Show-dog fanciers and Siberian Husky breed books often deny that Seppalas even exist!

For more information, please read: The Seppala Siberian Sled Dog Ideal

Old English Bulldogge

A few words from David Leavitt:

<<In 1971, I started this project of breeding a dog with the looks of the 18th century Bulldog. I had become disenchanted with English Bulldogs, due to breeding and breathing problems. I discovered that they didn't look like their ancestors, who were healthier and less extreme. I found that bull and bear-baiting had been very widespread for hundreds of years. Extreme cruelty to animals was inherent in baiting sports. This cruelty was abhorrent to me, but I was fascinated by the great tenacity and courage of the over-matched underdog. I was also drawn to the Bulldog because of his fierce appearance. A modern protection dog, who looks really tough, will repulse an assailant without having to bite. This is the most desirable end to a confrontation. I couldn't find a reliable source for old style Bulldogs, and set about the daunting task of breeding back. I call the breed the Olde English Bulldogge.>>

For more information, please read: Rare Breed Network: A Few Words from David Leavitt.

American Indian Dogs

<<Although it is very loyal and trainable, capable of learning as much as the owner (alpha pack leader) is capable of teaching it. It is a high-energy, primitive type-working breed that needs “TOUGH LOVE” and a job to do, to feel it has a responsible place in the family group or pack. As this breed becomes more and more well known, we need more and more education to stop the “Puppy Mill” type, “Wolf” and/or “Coyote” hybrid breeders from trying to market their hybrids as American Indian Dogs. THIS IS FALSE ADVERTISEMENT and just because they may look somewhat alike, THEY ARE NOT at all the same. People need to know what they are getting. Most hybrids end up passed from one home to another or put down. Please be sure you get a REGISTERED AMERICAN INDIAN DOG. Ask for the breeders number, the litter number and check with us at the Registry before you purchase. Every American Indian Dog Breeder has to be CERTIFIED through the Registry to breed true American Indian Dogs. >>

For more information, please read Founder's Message (by Kim La Flamme, registry owner)


<<Th. Haring writes a story of a dog breeder in Leonberg (Essig) where Essig claimed that he had been breeding dogs for about 20-24 years. In the same article, the dogs mentioned are Leonberger or Gotthard dog and a picture was published to show to readers what they looked like.
Large impressive dogs were very much in demand and there were years that Essig exported more than 300 dogs. The St. Bernard was very much in favor, but had become very rare. In fact, after a catastrophe in 1855, there was only one couple left at the St. Bernard pass. These dogs were crossed with Newfoundland females from Stuttgart, other local dogs, and English breeders crossed them with Mastiffs to obtain a more powerful head. >>

For more information, please read: Internationale Union fur Leonberge Hunde

The early history of the Leonberger is clouded and tumultuous, revolving around the enthusiasms and exploits of Heinrich Essig  (1809-1889). Essig was a successful politician with a genius for    marketing and public relations. He was an alderman and a prominent    citizen in Leonberg, a town on the outskirts of Stuttgart in southern    Germany. (Leonberg is just 50 kilometers from Rottweil, another famous town that gave its name to the dog breed that originated there.) Essig    was a successful professional animal trader who surrounded himself    with a variety of rare and exotic animals. In dogs, he preferred large    and imposing breeds, which he bred, bought and sold internationally.    In our time, we would probably consider him an rresponsible  puppy-mill owner. He bought and sold dogs for a span of fifty years,  trading sometimes 200 to 300 dogs a year at the height of his career. Like other entrepreneurial individuals, Essig's strong suit was vision    and marketing communications, not attention to detail! So,    unfortunately, he kept no detailed logs or records of his breedings, nor did he believe it necessary to write a standard for the breed he created. What we know of the development of the Leonberger comes from word-of-mouth reports, copies of advertisements written by Essig and others, references in a handful of nineteenth and turn-of-the-century    dog breed encyclopedias, and some very lively articles and    correspondence found in nineteenth-century animal periodicals like Hunde-sport und Jagt, Der Hundefreund, and  Der Hund , a German    nationwide dog magazine still being published today.

Please read: Leonbergers Breed FAQ's (from for more information.

Canaan Dogs

<<The Genuine Article! Both Tzel's sire and dam were bred by Myrna Shiboleth of the Shaar Hagai Kennels in Israel, Myrna has been breeding Canaan dogs for over 30 years and acquired some of her original stock from the founder of the breed, Prof R. Menzel, notably including Laish me Bnei HaBitachon the first Israeli Canaan champion and the dog Prof. Menzel considered to be the best she ever bred. In the early days of the Shaar Hagai Kennels Myrna brought all her dogs to Prof. Menzel to be judged and evaluated. Prof. Menzel would explain exactly what the qualities and the faults of that particular dog, and how it related to her ideal vision of the breed and whether or not it should be registered and bred from.>>

Please read: Kanaan Hund, Canaan Dog, Chien de Canaan.

<<It is said that the Canaan Dog should look like it has the potential to survive in the harsh conditions of the desert and many people rely very heavily on this to help describe what the breed should look like. Professor Menzel, the breed founder, described and studied several different types of Pariah dogs from the heavy extreme type, Type I, to the small grown type, Type V. It is clear that dogs ranging from very large and heavy bodied to very small and light bodied and with various types of coat are all capable of survival in these harsh conditions. Therefore just because a dog looks like it has the ability to be able to survive in the desert does not necessarily make it the light medium type (collie like) that Professor Menzel preferred and subsequently named the Canaan dog. What makes a Canaan Dog a Canaan Dog, as with every other breed, are its unique breed points such as head shape, body shape, ear and tail set and carriage, coat type and character.>> 

Please read: The Canaan Dog for more information.

Sealyham Terriers

<<The Sealyham Terrier is named for the country estate of the breed's founder, Captain John Edwardes, in Pembrokeshire, Wales. During the mid-1800s, Captain Edwardes needed a dog that could rid his acreage of the foxes, badgers, otters, rats, polecats, and rabbits that infested it. He did not care for the other terriers in the region so he decided to create his own breed. It is not known what breeds he used but there is speculation that they include the Pembroke Welsh Corgi, the West Highland White Terrier, the Dandie Dinmont Terrier, and the Bull Terrier. The Sealyham was recognized as its own breed by the Kennel Club of Great Britain in 1911 and the American Kennel Club in 1913, long after Captain Edwardes had passed away.>>

Please read: Sealyham Terriers for more information.

To learn more about the Shiloh Shepherd, please click on Critical Links.

Discover the critical issues that must be fully exposed!

Question 5: What if a certain dog fits the Breed Standard, doesn't that make it a Shiloh??


NO, because there is a lot more involved to this, then just "looking" like a certain breed!  We often see dogs that "look" like a Collie, or GSD, or some other known breed, but unless they have the proper documented registration papers  (unfortunately) they are still considered to be a "mixed-breed"  or  at the least an "unpapered" lookalike. Frown

I would like to take a moment to repeat a very important fact that people often get confused about.  There is NO such thing as a "perfect" dog!  Although some dogs will  be better "representatives" of their Breed Standard <blueprint> none will be 100% perfect!!  The Standard is just a guide for breeders to aim for, and the shows are only there to pick out the best specimens,  in the ring -- at that time

However, all of the other pups that were rated as "pet quality" due to various conformation faults, still have the right to consider themselves as members of their particular breed!  Can you imagine asking every dog to pass a "test" that would determine if they were - or were not a Labrador, Rottweiler, Doberman, or whatever, strictly determined by their appearance?? How foolish is that!  Every dog breed is classified by a certain name depending on the lineage he/she is descendant from .. not by its "actual"  appearance! Please take a moment to read the "Shiloh Shepherd" requirements established back in 1990!  Shiloh v. LHGSD

I think the confusion <as always> seems to go RIGHT back to kennel v. "breed" Confused

So let me start this lesson off with a bit of   GSD History

<<Many well-known kennels of the day, utilizing these lines were Long-Worth, founded by Lloyd Brackett, Liebestraum, owned by Grant Mann, and Hessian, owned by Art and Helen Hess.>>

If you read the GSD history articles, you will soon find that various "kennels" worked very hard to produce certain "TYPES" within the breed ..... "types" that were easily distinguished, and often referred to as "Such & Such Shepherds."  When at the shows it was very common to hear things like "that's a WIENERAU dog, or that's a LIEBESTRAUM dog, etc. etc...... and such kennels that "made a name" were highly respected!!  In turn, they demanded a higher price for their pups ..... so guess what happened??  

<<One drastic example of the widening split between German and American bloodlines in the 1960s is "Bodo vom Lierberg SchH3, FH". He was the 1967 German, Dutch and Belgian Sieger (Grand Victor), was sold to America, but didn’t make US Grand victor and ended up contributing very little to the breed. His brother, "Bernd vom Lierberg Sch3, FH" being as similar to Bodo in look and temperament as only a twin brother can be, remained in Germany and became THE most famous working dog ever since. They where the last all-in-one "universal" working and show dogs. Any real working Shepherd breeder in the world would give just about anything to have the name Bernd or Bodo vom Lierberg in his/her pedigree. Some breeders even use "sound-alike" kennel names to cash-in on the fame of that name. [emphasis added]>> Kimba gsd history

As the breed gained in popularity, many "puppy mills" started to spring up everywhere, the quality of the entire breed was so severely polluted that for a time it was doubtful that it would even survive this type of mass production!  Eventually it was common to refer to the GSD as **the**  "America Show dog"  "German Import" or just a Back Yard Breeder (aka "Puppy farm"  pet!!  Even then, type consistency within this breed was not always easy to come by!  I recall telling people that I could take half a dozen dogs & line them up <all AKC registered> and nobody in their right mind would believe that they could possible all be registered as the **same** breed!!  Because you could find them in all sized <males ranged from over 30" to just barely 24"> colors <except for spotted & brindle, the varieties were almost endless> and "types" <they could be tall & leggy like a wolf, or low stationed with long floppy ears that resembled a Bloodhound more then a GSD!> yet the AKC would provide "papers" on all of them, without any regard to type .. except for the "Show dogs" ... hardly anybody knew what their pup would look like, until it matured!

How could this happen??  Easy ..... it was promoted by people that chose to CALL themselves "breeders" even though they did not know any more about breeding then YOU do!  They were just interested in making a "fast buck" selling puppies from a breed that was in demand ...... at that time!!  If puppy sales dropped, they would just change breeds!!  People like this have always been in existence, and the harm they have done to some wonderful breeds is just plain criminal!!!

Puppy Producers: What Are They?

So what is a real breeder?  A person that whelps a litter of pups .. OR?  Why not take a few minutes to read this page ..... I recall people like this from my past ... not like some of the people that demand to be called "breeders" today     

Shotaan German Shepherds, the UK's number one progressive kennel

Now expand your education a bit and read  Tullibardine Farm Chinooks. Here is a tiny sample!!

<<As new enthusiasts of the breed, and potential breeders as well, we also put a great deal of time into learning as much as we could about the Chinook, and about conservation of minor breeds and working breeds. As for history, breed founder Arthur Walden was often interviewed, and also produced three published works of his own that drew heavily on his “dog punching” experiences in Alaska; and our local antiquarian bookseller was most helpful in locating much of this information. Curiously, the most consuming part was actually learning enough about the modern history of the breed (post 1963, to date) to develop a breeding strategy to suit the needs of the modern Chinook. Fairly early on in the process, I did make the following observations:  Diversity Advice on breeding genetics varies somewhat from one professional to the next, but most seem to agree that the key to long term breed survival is to protect the breed’s genetic diversity above all else. While some linebreeding is generally recommended to maintain breed type, 8 generation inbreeding coefficients in the 10% - 15% range are also recommended to maintain healthy diversity; but inbreeding coefficients in the Chinook, with pedigree records dating back to Harold Smead’s stewardship in the mid to late 1960s, were much, much higher.   >>

If you dig deep, you will note that:
1. Breed Founders were respected and their advice was followed...if not, the "breeds" under development <including the GSD> would never have survived!! This process did not last 2-3 years, but many DECADES.
2. People took pride in what they developed and didn't try (except for the "scumbags") to "steal" some famous name, just to sell their puppies.

EVEN if you purchased a pup from Fran-Jo kennels, and later bred her to Lance, **you** (as the breeder) could NOT (would not dare to) name your pups Fran-Jo's this or that!!  It would be IMMORAL!!!  RIDICULOUS!!  INSANE actually!!  If this was YOUR breeding, you should name the progeny using your kennel name!!  After all, you were trying to develop *your* own kennel type ... right?? 

Not so these days! All/most of the frauds insist on calling their kennels (something) Shiloh Shepherds! The ISSR Licensed Breeders have the integrity and pride not to stoop so low!

Shiloh Shepherds has been MY kennel name for nearly 30 years now!!  Since 1974 all the dogs (be they AKC GSD'S or whatever) that were bred at my kennel should reflect that name! In 1991 I brought them "out" to the public via the ISSR (allowing others that agreed to follow MY strict guidelines) to use MY name, via the ISSR, Inc. Licensed Breeders Agreement  because those dogs are bred under MY supervision ........ and therefore deserve to be recognized as Shiloh Shepherds, in order to EXPAND the gene pool sufficiently enough to establish them as a "real" breed (probably in another 5-10 years). 

ONLY the dogs that have maintained their ISSR documentation as "breeding quality" can be utilized in this program .... yes the "pet" quality (non-breedable) dogs can still claim that they **are** Shiloh Shepherds, but they cannot claim that any progeny they may produce (illegally) should be called likewise. 

Just like in the example I gave above .... If the pup WAS produced by the Fords, then it should carry the Fran-Jo name, if not (even though a Fran-Jo male was the stud) the puppies cannot carry their kennel name ..... that principle has been accepted universally ..... WHY "some" folks seem to be having a problem with this is ALSO confusing to ME!

IMHO, it's just simple identity theft utilized to cheat, steal and destroy!

In all honesty .... I don't know how to explain this new **weird**  "multiple registry" phenomenon any better    Just Don't Fall 4 the Fraud

The best I can say is that ..... IF the dogs have AKC papers stating that they are GSD's .... then THAT is what they are!!  If they have official ISSR papers stating that they are Shiloh Shepherds .... then THAT is what they are!  If they have papers generated by someone that calls him/herself a "registry" ... then the buyers are getting the wool pulled over their eyes, because they are probably unregistrable "mixed" pups that would NOT qualify for acceptance into the AKC or the ISSR Frown

2006 Update

In 2004, a small group of slivers attempted to get UKC recognition! Please read the documentation that we presented to Mr. Cavanaugh and then take a moment to view the other available links!

The UKC rejected their application, but it did spur me on to write additional web articles such as our Registry Comparison.

I sure hope this helps ... please feel free to research and discuss this issue further! You are more then welcome to join  Our Shiloh Shepherds™ Community - Powered by Infopop.


Question 6. If it only takes 3-4 generations of breeding "type" to establish a "rare" breed, why is the Shiloh Shepherd listed as STILL being under development?


Because just "setting type" and establishing a solid foundation does not provide for sufficient gene pool to continue the process!  In order to better understand what is involved in "breed development" lets look at the biggest two edged sword that a breeder must learn to deal with, and overcome!!

Inbreeding is a wonderful tool that helps us to set "type" and quickly establish a foundation <like laying the "foundation slab" for a new house> Wink

It helps us to "lock in" all of the desirable virtues we are seeking to build upon, making the next step (outcrossing) much easier to deal with, since we have already "locked in" "our" (Lassie)  "type" via the initial inbreeeding program.  This is why you can sometimes see an entire litter of pups that resembles (in this case-Collies) one of the parents/grandparents, even though the other parent has a very different appearance. 

Example: If you bred this inbred Collie to a beagle, the pups may look a lot more like Collies!  Yet they have "picked up" the "shadow dog" (recessive) of the Beagle, and if you breed some of these Collie look-a-like pups  to a Golden Retriever, you may end up with pups that look like Goldens or Beagles, even though one of the parents "looked" like a Collie!!  This should show you how fast you can "build" or "tear down" any specific "type"  that you are striving towards!

So why can't we just continue to inbreed on the foundation dogs?  Because you will hit what is known as a "Bottleneck" and this leads to "Inbreeding depression" that MUST be avoided at all costs!!! 

Please note:

About the only animals that are routinely inbred to a high level are laboratory mice and rats. There, the breeders start breeding many lines simultaneously in the expectation that the majority will die out or will suffer significant inbreeding depression, which generally means that they are smaller, produce fewer offspring, are more susceptible to disease, and have a shorter average lifespan. Dogs are no different. If you can start with enough lines, a few may make it through the genetic bottleneck with acceptable fitness. However, dog breeders generally don't have the resources to start several dozen or more lines simultaneously.

Breeding Schemes--the Canine Diversity Project

There are many "side effects" that have to be overcome, but let's just look at one of them:  Immune Deficiency!  When people ask me about it, I often say something like ... How many people do you know of that have died from AIDS?  After thinking about it seriously, they have to say none. People die of complications associated with the fact that they have AIDS, not the actual "disease" known as Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome!  Then I ask them to consider the possibility of every human on earth being affected with this "disease", how many "generations" do they think the human race, as we know it today, could continue? 

Now try to apply this scenario to a "breed" of dog. It's easy to see why there would be NO hope for survival  for that particular "breed" unless drastic outcrossing were to take place!  But of course, that would certainly dilute the "type" that was established to begin with!!  (See example above) Therefore the breed must be classified as "still under development" until a sufficient gene pool base of unrelated dogs has been established!!  Depending on the number of pups born per year (and the quality of those litters) this process could take several decades!!  In the event there are major problems (even "political" ones, like those that have plagued the Shiloh Shepherd) along the way, this "gene pool expansion" process would certainly take a lot longer!!!

If you still would like to investigate this subject further, please read Inbreeding Depression and Outbreeding Depression.

For an even deeper study of this subject; please note what the top scientists have to say!!

"How do the lab mouse breeders "get away with it" -- by starting many, many lines and watching most of them die out as they become more inbred. If you breed enough lines, a few may make it through without any major health problems, but I would be surprised if they were as fit as their wild counterparts. (They may be healthier due to better care and nutrition, but I doubt they'd do as well in the wild.) I think cheetahs are in much the same situation. They made it through some event 10-20,000 years that wiped out the North American and other populations, and the African population was lucky. Conservation biologists still worry about their adaptability. It's not that it can't be done. It's just that no one has the resources to start several 100 inbred lines of Poodle, Aussie, GSD, or whatever, or wants to put down hundreds if not thousands of sick puppies."

Inbreeding depression

Links to articles on Shiloh Shepherd health issues in the Shiloh Shepherd Learning Center


Question 7.

Why can't someone just outcross to a GSD??


Because that would be defeating the entire purpose of separating from them in the first place!!  It has already taken decades to set the proper "type" that can continue to breed true to the Shiloh Shepherd breed standard; outcrossing back to a regular GSD would just tear down all of that hard work!  Besides, if folks just want a long haired GSD, there are plenty of AKC breeders that are still breeding them!!  Why would anyone want to call it a "Shiloh Shepherd"? The sliver frauds are just doing to to make money! They can purchase GSD "litter lots" from puppy mills and sell them for thousands of dollars by printing off "their own" fake papers!Furthermore, if they liked the idea of a "cross" between the two breeds (like the Labradoodle or Cockapoo crosses) then all they need to do is to purchase a "King Shepherd" since that is what that breed is all about! 


For serious Shiloh Shepherd breeders to outcross to GSD's would be ludicrous, because it is a step backwards in the development of this breed, especially when we consider the gene pools that are available today!! 

Be sure to read my Critical Links!


The GSD has changed drastically over the past few decades!  Due to the stringent demands for competition dogs, the Imports have become much "harder" and many remain in a "hyper" state when they are not working.  This is extremely desirable for the competition trainer, but can become a major problem for the typical family that just wants a great companion! Crossing these dogs with the average Shiloh can lead to major temperament problems that must only be dealt with by a professional trainer! Even though some of the EAST German and Czech Imports may still resemble the old-style GSD in appearance, their temperament is very different from the Shiloh Shepherd™! These dogs have been bred, for generations, mainly for police, government and border patrol use! Before purchasing such a dog, the new owner is usually advised (by reputable breeders) to prepare for a stringent training regimen with their local Schutzhund club. Novice ownership is never recommended!

Warning: It is also an extremely dangerous practice, since the unsuspecting new owner might be expecting a gentle Shiloh, while unbeknownst to him, he could actually be raising an unpredictable killer mix!

I am speaking here from personal experience, since I was one of the first people, over two decades ago, to start importing them! Hans Blabla has continued to import them, and he also knows the Shilohs very well due to the fact that he trained the first Shiloh Shepherd™ SAR dog in Jackson Hole, Wyoming (back in '78) and started the Alpine Search Teams out there! During the 80's he worked at my kennel and several "Personal Protection" Kennels, such as Kimbertal, working with various breeds. I am sure he is competent to provide you with his personal knowledge regarding Temperaments and Shiloh Shepherds™ versus East German/Czech Imports and/or the potential disasters involved with breeding such lines together!

The American show dogs would be better suited regarding temperament compatibility, but they have changed so drastically, in appearance,  over the past  few years that crossing back to them at this point would only produce my worst fears of the 70's:  powder puffed mini spooks!!  Why would anyone want to do such a thing to the noble Shiloh Shepherd™??  Take a few minutes and look at the GSD winners of the 60's then move up to the past few years, and you will easily be able to see the changes that have gone into that marvelous breed!!  Now be sure to take a look at my article regarding Conformation Titles, what do they mean and then visit my recent Broken Hearted Breed Founder Cherry Blossom 2004 article.

The real Shiloh Shepherd has to be BIG-BEAUTIFUL and SUPER INTELLIGENT, with a gentle temperament that is well suited for a family companion that can be trusted with children and loved by all!

Links to Temperament and Training Articles in the Shiloh Shepherd Learning Center.


Question 8. Why are the ISSR rules for breeding these dogs so strict?  We don't have all these rules with my GSDs that are registered in the AKC. 


Because this is a breed *still* under development and without a strong  vision,  and strict rules that must be followed (via the ISSR) this "breed" will never be able to achieve the temperament, conformation and health that I had envisioned!  In the AKC and most other registries, any registered male GSD can "legally"  be mated with any registered female GSD, regardless of the health, temperament and conformation of the dogs.  The ISSR rules are in place to insure that only the best and safest breedings are done, with the ultimate goal of always improving the breed.  Therefore, generations after I am gone, this breed will live on and continue to be the best it can possibly be!!